President Joe Biden officially dropped out of the 2024 presidential race and formally endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris to succeed him at the top of the ticket. Over the past few days many Democratic party officials have voiced their support for Vice President Harris and should she win in November her ascension to the Presidency would also mark many historic firsts. But there’s a lot that needs to happen before we get there. To unpack this moment, Brittany Packnett Cunningham joins the show to talk all about the excitement behind a Kamala Harris presidency, the role of Win With Black Women in building to this moment, and the impending Veepstakes!
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On today’s episode
Our host
Errin Haines is The 19th’s editor-at-large and writer of The Amendment newsletter. An award-winning journalist with nearly two decades of experience, Errin was previously a national writer on race for the Associated Press. She’s also worked at the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post.
Follow Errin on Instagram @emarvelous and X @errinhaines.
Today’s guest
Brittany Packnett Cunningham is a leader at the intersection of culture, justice and policy. Rooted always in the belief that justice is divine and liberation is for everyone, Brittany’s mission is to speak and teach truth that moves people to action—no matter the platform.
Follow Brittany Packnett Cunningham on Instagram @mspackyetti.
Episode transcript
The Amendment podcast transcripts are automatically generated by a third-party website and may contain typos or other errors. Please consider the official record for The Amendment podcast to be the audio publicly available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Brittany:
America is learning so much right now: Win With Black Women, the D Nine, HBCU life and culture…
Errin:
Yes.
Brittany:
Absolutely. Everybody keeps saying, “Is America ready for, you know, to elect a Black woman president?” And I’m like..
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
“It doesn’t matter if America’s ready. We’re ready. So y’all better go ahead and catch up.”
Errin:
Hey, y’all, welcome to The Amendment, a weekly conversation about gender, politics and power from the 19th News and Wonder Media Network. I’m your host, Errin Haines. So I don’t know where you’ve been, but just to get us all caught up, on Sunday afternoon President Joe Biden dropped out of the 2024 presidential race. It was a historic move. No president has ever withdrawn their bid for reelection so late in the race. And 30 minutes later, Biden formally endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris to succeed him at the top of the ticket. Now, over the past few days, many Democratic party officials have voiced their support for Vice President Harris, and should she get the nomination and win in November her ascension to the presidency would also mark many historic firsts. But look, there’s a lot that needs to happen before we get there. So, to unpack this incredible moment, I’m turning to one of my most trusted friends and brilliant political minds. Joining us today is social justice activist, author, educator, podcaster, amazing mom, et cetera, et cetera: Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Brittany, welcome to The Amendment.
Brittany:
Hey, boo, thanks for having me.
Errin:
Listen, thanks for being here. I mean, just in general, but also today. Let’s get into it. Uh, I mean, look, we’ve been watching this. Pressure had been mounting for months for President Biden to drop out of the race. There were questions about his age, even before the disastrous debate performance last month. So, I mean, what do you think really pushed him over the edge into making this historic decision?
Brittany:
Listen, I think that he understood that winning and defeating Donald Trump had to be the priority of the day. And if no matter how hard you’ve worked, no matter how much you’ve stood in front of reporters for 90 minutes and answered questions back to back to back, if you’ve lost the confidence of the folks that are supposed to be your partners in this then it’s time to step aside. And I’m very sure that was a difficult decision. I mean, he has been in public service and elected leadership much of his life, and I also don’t think he would have made the choice if he were not deeply confident in Vice President Harris. I think we need to recognize that it was an unpopular choice to commit to picking a woman as his Vice President. It was an unpopular choice internally, right? Like, not with the people, but with the political bourgeoisie, if we will.
Brittany:
It was unpopular—
Errin:
Absolutely.
Brittany:
—right? To commit to picking a woman of color. It was unpopular to pick a Black woman named Kamala Harris and ensure that she would be the next Vice President of the United States — a Black and South Asian woman. And so here we are, where he has defied the odds to help not only make history, but bring a younger perspective, more progressive perspective, the perspective of a child of immigrants, right? And he’s not going to do that if he does not trust her judgment and trust her leadership. And so I think that when he gave that endorsement, he meant it. It was a full throated endorsement. It was clear. It was early and immediate. And I think that that was significant to a lot of people. And we’ve seen the party really coalesce around the Vice President, following President Biden’s lead.
Errin:
Yeah. And look, the president has been consistent, right? I mean, even, you know, he chose her. When he gets into office, he says, “We are going to be true partners. This is the person who I want to be the last person in the room with me as I make, you know, we are making decisions. This is our administration.” Like tying the Biden-Harris administration together, long before there was a Biden-Harris, you know, kind of ticket for this reelection campaign, reaffirmed her. I mean, just as recently I, you know, when he was in Las Vegas at the NAACP convention, you know, he was talking about her leadership even then as he was, you know, kind of contemplating what his, you know, future was going to be in terms of reelection. And so, you know, you could see that endorsement came from what felt like certainly a genuine place in terms of their relationship and his confidence in her from the very beginning up until this very moment.
Errin:
So, you know, he pretty quickly endorsed Kamala Harris. Like I said, I mean, the tweet about the Vice President came out, I think, like, about a half an hour after, you know, he announced that he was stepping the side. Right? And then, you know, you had a lot of Democratic leaders quickly getting behind this decision, while others have kind of advocated for this more open primary approach. What was interesting, you know, I was coming outta Milwaukee.
Brittany:
Oh, child.
Errin:
It was a lot, right? And you know, the thing about the Republican National Convention was that atmosphere really had this kind of air of inevitability.
Brittany:
Mm-hmm.
Errin:
And then as you saw, people start to line up behind Vice President Harris Sunday, Monday, into Tuesday.
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
The air of inevitability, you know, really kind of vanished. And the momentum kind of really seemed to shift in her direction. So I had been long advocating, you know, even when the conversation first kind of began after the debate debacle, you know, should he step aside? Who should be his successor? You know, to my mind, the sitting Vice President was sitting right there. Most qualified person to my mind to really step into this role, right? You know, and not just because it would be political suicide to throw the Black woman who had made history over the side. But because, you know, she had been leading and she had been literally mirroring this man for three and a half years. And so she has been training for this. I mean, literally, like, she is the “in case of emergency” person.
Brittany:
Yeah, absolutely.
Errin:
Right? And this, you know, for Democrats, this is an emergency.
Brittany:
That’s right.
Errin:
But there were certainly people who were looking all over the place, uh, you know…
Brittany:
Under rocks, over mountains, in the valley…
Errin:
Yeah. I mean, Aaron Sorkin fanfic.
Brittany:
Of course.
Errin:
I mean, we had it all by the end. But it felt to me like she made sense as the likely successor and the person that certainly the president was in support of, but also just the person that that should be…
Brittany:
That’s right.
Errin:
…you know, in this position as front runner now. And yet, this still, in some circles is a conversation. I wonder what you make of that, and I wonder what you think about the case for her leadership moving forward.
Brittany:
Well, you know, it’s interesting because, to so many reports, she hasn’t just been mirroring him. She’s been pushing him. That there were…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
This is a woman who signed onto the Green New Deal when she was in the Senate, right? And has always been to the left of President Biden on climate issues. And here is this president passing one of the most consequential pieces of climate legislation that we’ve ever seen. And he acknowledges, right — the insiders acknowledge — that that was both partnership and her bringing her perspective to bear on that that was even a bit further than his. And so, I think it’s important that we recognize early on President Biden said he was gonna be a bridge candidate. Now, we did not know that this is what it was going to look like. But that bridge helps, right? Bring us from near utter destruction back to stability and toward the future.
Brittany:
Has everything been perfect? Has everything been stable? Has everything been the way that I and many others have wanted it to be, especially internationally? Absolutely not. And yet, we now have an opportunity sitting in front of us, where we can actually decide to move forward as a country, right? Decide to take an open opportunity to do something that’s never been done before, in a way that’s never been done before, and therefore pursue policy and imagination and the future in a way that we haven’t done before. So I think that it was wise for the party to finally get behind her in that, especially because it would’ve been difficult — it would’ve been problematic, frankly — for the whole country and our future if we were not ready to embrace something this forward thinking. You know, it’s also interesting to me because I was feeling deep frustration — irrespective of who the candidate is, what she believes, the fact that she’s a Black and South Asian woman, irrespective of all of that — I had an intense problem with the idea that some people with a lot of money, and some people who’ve been in party leadership for a long time get to sit on signal chats and in back rooms and on private calls and make a decision for the American people.
Brittany:
When 14 million people had showed up to the primary and voted for the Biden-Harris ticket, those 14 million people reasonably expected that if Biden were to step aside in any circumstance — whether from the office or from the campaign — that she would be the one to step in. And 14 million people said, “Yes, this is what we want to happen.” So for people to be able to subvert democracy in that way — an imperfect democracy, but democracy nonetheless — because they got enough money, and they have enough clout to make that happen, I have a problem with that. A lot of voters had a problem with that. And I don’t…
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
….believe that that should ever be something that we are comfortable or okay with. There’s already too much money in politics. Let’s not let wealthy donors have even more control than they already do.
Errin:
Yeah. I mean, you’re making such a good point, especially in a year where we’re talking about the integrity…
Brittany:
That’s right.
Errin:
…of our democracy, right? And what that means. And voter integrity, frankly, and voter agency.
Brittany:
Voter agency, voter integrity and the validity of our democratic and government institutions. People don’t have faith in the Supreme Court ’cause they’re watching justices subvert ethical boundaries all the time. They don’t have faith in Congress ’cause it took them forever to even name a speaker. They’re frustrated about the lack of transparency at the local, state and federal level. So if people don’t even trust the institutions that — whether or not we like them or not — will still govern our lives, we have…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
…a crisis on our hands. And that crisis of a lack of validity and belief, um, is one that has to be faced head on. And it means that the modicum of democracy that we’re experiencing now has to be preserved so that we can actually create more.
Errin:
And I mean, I guess to your point about the process, I mean, literally we find out overnight that Vice President Harris has secured the delegates, right, that she needs for this nomina-
Brittany:
And a whole lot of money.
Errin:
Well, we’ll get to that. The presumptive nominee, right? So, I mean, the concerns that President Biden’s immediate endorsement of her, or, you know, kind of party elites, coming, you know, consolidating around her, kind of anoints her as a leader, even though the Vice President said, you know, she “intends to earn and win the nomination.” She’s certainly been working very hard over the last 72 hours, right, since this news kind of became official. But that the sitting vice president needed to earn this I thought was very interesting and kind of more telling about this process and what does that really mean? She’s made pretty quick work of sewing this up pretty far ahead of the Democratic National Convention this month.
Brittany:
Yeah, that’s right. And, you know, I will be in attendance to that convention.
Errin:
Same, see you there.
Brittany:
See you there. It’ll definitely be a time and historical moment.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
And I’m interested to see not only how the party continues to coalesce around her, but how they coalesce around a platform that really looks toward the future, coalesce around a platform that brings an end to genocides, right? And I say genocides: plural. Coalesce around a platform that protects and preserves reproductive justice and access to abortion that really protects our ability to learn freely, right? ‘Cause all these books are getting banned and the teachers are getting fired for talking about the truth. And to actually protect the one environment and earth that we have so that we can reverse as much harm as possible, and actually move forward in a way that keeps us all safe. You know, there are so many more issues that are on the ballot for all of us, right?
Brittany:
It’s jobs, it’s the economy. It is people’s health and safety. There are so many things on the ballot. And the excitement that the Democratic Party is experiencing now is because they gave people something new and future forward to believe in. I’m hopeful that the party actually takes that signal and says, let’s keep going with this momentum. ’cause it’s bigger than one person and one candidate. It is about the fact that people have something new to believe in, that there’s some hope for some change, for some forward movements, for some progression — not just fixing what was broken, but actually moving us forward collectively. I know that party politics are thick and weird and funky, but I’m still hoping that the energy that the people have brought and the ways that people have expressed very clearly that we want something new and fresh to fight for — and new and fresh folks and ideas to fight for us — I’m hoping that that’s the name of the game in Chicago.
Errin:
Yeah. I mean, it’ll be interesting to see, you know, kind of what happens in Chicago So we’ll be watching. You brought up money, and I wanna talk about that because, listen, a practical benefit of having the Vice President lead the party’s ticket is that, you know, she’s got access to the funds that the Biden campaign has already raised. And so the campaign said in the first 24 hours, it raised a whopping $81 million. So, you know, for everybody who was kind of speculating about whether she was gonna be able to generate excitement or enthusiasm, I mean, to the extent that money is an indication of that, I think we have our answer.
Errin:
And I also just wanna talk about one of the secret weapons: Win With Black Women.
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
I was on that marathon call. You know, we were among the 44,000. I think you were on there, too.
Brittany:
I sure was.
Errin:
Right? Listening in. And you and I have listened to that call many a Sunday, right? We know that this was something that was four years in the making.
Brittany:
That call is so special. And I remember when our dear sister friend Jotaka Eaddy, started calling around to some of us and said, “Look, we need to really organize.” And we’re talking about 2020, so organizing looks different.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
We can’t go all sit in a room together and meet. We gotta get on the Zoom. We have to get on our Zoom, and we gotta talk about the things that…
Errin:
Oh God, it was the middle of the pandemic! That’s right!
Brittany:
And I remember that very first meeting. There were maybe a couple dozen of us who were committed to defeating Trump, to forcing America to deal with the ways in which, at that time, Senator Harris was being attacked, right? And so really the orientation was to fight back against the misogynoir, to fight back against that unique…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
…intersection of racism and sexism that were coming at her hard — that had been coming at her during the presidential primary — the disinformation, the misinformation, the ways in which she particularly was targeted and the communities from which she comes were particularly targeted. We said, “We would be remiss, and it would be malpractice, for us to have all these skills, talents, platforms, resources, and not come together and fight back,” right?
Brittany:
Because fighting against that for her is fighting against that for all of us. And the first call was, you know, maybe a dozen or two people.
Brittany:
The second call grew. The third call grew. By the time of the election, that call was already several hundreds of women. And what Jotaka so brilliantly created in that space was really an organizing body for lots of things, right? Because Win With Black Women made “The Color Purple” remake highly successful, right? Win With Black Women has gotten local, state and other federal leaders elected, right? Into Congress, into mayor’s offices, into governor’s offices. That call — if you have an appeal to make to Black women — that call is the place to be.
Errin:
That’s the call to be on.
Brittany:
If you’re trying to get us to watch a movie, to buy something, to vote for somebody, to vote against somebody, that Sunday night call at 8:30 has been the place you have to be for four years. When I’ve run different campaigns, I have gone back to the group I was a part of and said, “Hey, can I count on you all’s support?”
Brittany:
And the answer has always been consistently, “Yes.” Right? I mean, it ebbs and flows, but that’s why we build teams and not saviors, right? That’s why we make sure that when you have to tap out, there’s somebody there to tap in. And that’s what Win With Black Women is. Because if we’re all doing it together, then there’s not too much pressure on any single person.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
And so it’s good to see that the colored girls — the Donna Braziles and Leah Daughtry and Mignon Moore and Yolanda Caraway — don’t have to do it on their own, right? And carry as much.
Errin:
Yeah. Because they’re tired.
Brittany:
They tired, child. They’ve been carrying a whole lot. It’s good to see that Cora Masters Barry doesn’t have to be in the fight as heavy as she once was because she’s got sisters of all generations that she can lean on.
Brittany:
It’s good to see that Dr. Johnetta Betsch Cole can be feeding her wisdom to multi-generational calls every week and make sure that younger and younger generations are heeding the wisdom of our Black women elders. And so that call has always been a special place. And then the same day that Biden announces he’s dropping out, the same day that Biden endorsed his president — oh, well, President Harris. We gonna go ahead and claim it. Vice President Harris — the day that she formally launches her campaign for president to…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
…excitement and fanfare and hope — to have that call already be scheduled for that day, for the COO of Zoom — one of our Indian sisters — having to step in and actually expand our ability to move the call from 1,000 to 10,000 to then the 44,000 that were on.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
To be witnessing and experiencing that moment in history together…
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
I’m getting goosebumps talking about it. It is a moment I will never forget.
Errin:
No, it was historic.
Brittany:
It was! We were standing fully in our power. We were standing fully in the honor it is to be a part of the sorority of Black womanhood. And we were standing fully in the ownership that we have to take over how much we already command what the world is and can be, right?
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
So instead of just talking about it, we were all on the call being about it. And you know, that call like you said, has already raised $2 million. The black men’s call the next day — which I crashed, by the way, just to thank them for showing up — raised, you know, a million and a half dollars. So when we talk about the $81 million, a whole bunch of it came from Black people. A whole bunch of it came from disciplined, organized Black people who you can expect to continue to see over these next four months and after the election, to make sure that our agenda is followed through on. All these small dollar donors who came together to say, “Hey, the big wigs and the wealthy folks don’t get to choose for us. We get to choose for us,” that’s meaningful. And I really hope the party is listening.
Errin:
There were so many people that just immediately recognized what that moment was and wanted to be a part of it, you know?
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
The 44,000 on Zoom, you know, that was just the beginning. There were another 30,000 I think, on Clubhouse.
Brittany:
Yeah.
Errin:
There were people that were on Zoom that were putting Zoom on speaker phone.
Brittany:
There were 5,000 people who signed up to organize in their state. Like, people are getting to work.
Errin:
And that’s the thing, right? I mean, that is a call that is also about a call to action. And it mobilizes Black women. I mean, it is a place of community, but it is also a place where folks are taking their marching orders. So you and I certainly know that Win With Black Women was nothing new, although a lot of folks in the mainstream media certainly found out about it on Sunday night, so…
Brittany:
We’ve been here.
Errin:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, uh, I’ve actually got a story that’s going up,, just kind of educating some folks about what Win With Black Women is.
Brittany:
America is learning so much right now: Win With Black Women, the D Nine, HBCU life and culture.
Errin:
Yes.
Brittany:
Absolutely. Everybody keeps saying, “Is America ready for, you know, to elect a Black woman president?” And I’m like..
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
“It doesn’t matter if America’s ready. We’re ready. So y’all better go ahead and catch up.”
Errin:
You mentioned the misogynoir. And we’ve already seen, you know, kind of the Trump campaign’s response, you know, former President Trump’s response.
Brittany:
Yeah.
Errin:
He’s attacking the Vice President, as, you know, dumb, as too liberal, as a liar of all things. We’ve been here before…
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
…obviously, especially withTrump and his playbook, particularly towards women. 2016, you know, the entire 2024 primary, yesterday.
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
I guess how are you seeing these attacks? Certainly Black women are a lot more prepared — even more prepared than we were, uh, you know, four years ago. How are you looking at this and what do you think they mean?
Brittany:
Well, certainly Black women are more prepared, right? I’m seeing so many texts in our group chats and posts that people are sending around to each other, reminding us that we don’t have to receive the inputs of hatred that consistently come toward us. That we can choose to tap out of social media spaces or watching news spaces that continue to amplify those attacks on Vice President Harris, and therefore on all of us. And we can choose to tap into the things that are productive, that are progressive, that are moving us forward, that help us care, take care of each other in community. But I’m also, if I’m honest with you, me personally, I am cracking up because white supremacy is not novel. Like patriarchy is not inventive. We all sat around in our group chats and predicted exactly what they were going to say, and…
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
Lo and behold, they’ve been saying it. Like we knew that it was going to be, “You slept your way at the top.” Like, we knew that there was going to be attacks on the fact that she does not have any children that she birthed herself. Meanwhile, none of the other presidents who have ever come before her have ever given birth to children. So why do we care about it now?
Errin:
Indeed, true.
Brittany:
Right? Like, we knew that..
Errin:
Giving birth is not a prerequisite to being president.
Brittany:
Period.
Errin:
FYI.
Brittany:
And she is, indeed, a mother because her stepchildren are her children, too.
Errin:
Yes.
Brittany:
Right? Like we knew it was going to be about her intelligence. Meanwhile, she has proven time and again, just like Black women always do, that we’re always twice as prepared and three times as ready to stand up. And the truth of the matter is, you wanna cast her as dumb because you are completely unprepared to debate her. She’s gonna eat you up and spit you out.
Errin:
If he shows up!
Brittany:
Right? I’m really hoping that she’s, like, she calls his bluff and she says, “Great, we can do Fox. We can do anytime, anywhere, because the message is gonna be the same and the American people deserve to hear it.” Um, so I’m actually really finding it quite hilarious, because y’all could, like, y’all ain’t got nothing better. Y’all could come up with something, something. Y’all over here chasing down Willie Brown, like people don’t have dating histories. Montel Williams already told you he’s not interested in talking to y’all. So like, y’all gonna have to get more creative or something, but you won’t because white supremacy and patriarchy are incapable of being creative.
Errin:
Yes. I can see that you are amused. I also think, you know, look, you talk about messaging. What about the messaging coming from Vice President Harris? I mean, just…what a difference four years makes.
Brittany:
That’s right.
Errin:
Suddenly this woman’s prosecutor status is very fair…
Brittany:
Being in a different lane.
Errin:
…for this campaign, right? I mean, prosecuting the case against former President Trump, who obviously is facing multiple, you know, legal challenges on multiple fronts.
Brittany:
Yeah.
Errin:
Right now, right. And she says, “I know Donald Trump’s type,” you know, as a former prosecutor who has prosecuted people for the types of crimes that he has been accused and adjudicated for. We’ve already seen her be an effective messenger on, you know, issues like abortion. But this prosecutor theme that she seems to really be hammering, kind of — we just heard it yesterday in the stump speech; we’ll probably hear it again today when she’s out in Milwaukee. Like prosecuting the case against President Trump on the court of public opinion, right? With the voters.
Brittany:
That’s right.
Errin:
That feels like something that could be pretty potent.
Brittany:
I agree. I think it’s really important that the party threads a needle, because one of the things that so many of us on the left of the aisle — whether you are a Democrat, progressive, leftist, whatever — have been championing is the restoration of voting rights for formerly incarcerated people, right? Because so many of those people, Errin, look like you and I, and I think it’s important that we don’t ostracize and alienate the very people we’ve been trying to bring back into the fold. That said, yeah. I think what has been important about what she has been doing in particular as she messages this, is that she’s specifying the kind of activity that she’s talking about. She’s specifying that we’re talking about sexual assault.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
She’s specifying that we’re talking about running scam, for-profit colleges. She’s specifying that we’re talking about, um, people who ran fraudulent banks that defrauded people out of their hard-earned money and life savings.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
She’s specifying that we’re talking about not just any old shoplifter, but a thief that tried to steal from the American people and, you know, watch his own Vice President be lynched in the process, right?
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
A thief who would happily send out his goons to intimidate Black women and elderly people and poll workers and election certifiers. That would send out his people to, you know, kidnap their opponents, to kill their opponents, to drive us out of the country, right? That she’s talking about someone who sees seditious activity, traitorous activity, tyrannical activity, as just another day at the office. And that distinction, I think, has been very clear from her messaging and her mouth. And I think that that distinction is one that the American people are really finding important. That if January the sixth was just a precursor, we cannot afford to see what the next chapter is supposed to look like in their mind. And that those are specifically the kind of crimes that the American people will not stand for and will not tolerate.
Errin:
Yeah. Well, can we talk about veep stakes?
Brittany:
Of course, we can.
Errin:
Let’s talk about the VP’s hunt for her, you know, potential VP on this ticket. I wrote a column earlier this week about who I think the V pick should be. TL;DR — It’s Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, even though she has said that she is not interested, there’s still time. But my thinking is, you know, if a veep pick is supposed to bring value and balance to a ticket, Whitmer is an ideal fit for a number of reasons. You’ve got two women on the ballot; that draws a great contrast with this all-male ticket on the other side, especially during the year when women’s rights are literally on the ballot, right? And Whitmer has proven that she can win over rust belt voters. Uh, that’s a must-win region for the Vice President.
Errin:
And, you know, you’ve got people saying that this is a group of voters that maybe, you know, Harris won’t be popular with. Look, bottom line: I think it’s a great choice. Like I said, I know that she has said that she is not interested, but, you know, we’re all not interested until we get asked, right? Nobody’s asking me either. I’m also not interested. But conventional wisdom says, you know, there needs to be a White man on the ticket. But, you know, I don’t know that that’s necessarily true this year. These are unprecedented times, you know, just to, you know, butcher that phrase one more time. This is not a primary, right? Like, if this is the ticket…
Brittany:
This might be the one and only chance to prove — well, at least in our lifetimes, to prove — to the American people that, yes, not just one woman, but two women can actually do this much better.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
You know, I agree with you. If the whole thing is blown up anyway, then like, let’s go for it, right? If we’re in uncharted territory, then let’s go for it. But yeah, the prevailing wisdom is we’re talking about a straight, White, milquetoast, plays-good-in-the-American-heartland…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
…White man.
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
You know, with three-point-five kids and a dog and a white picket fence in preferably a swing state, right?
Errin:
Yeah.
Brittany:
And I think that there are pros and cons to all of the names that have been floated, right? Like, we know that if we’re talking about Senator Mark Kelly, that we’re potentially opening up a seat in a critical Senate election, right?
Errin:
Right.
Brittany:
And that would have to be a special election. And, if, you know, President Harris is going to be effective, she needs a Congress behind the work that she wants to do. Keeping the Senate blue and getting the House to be blue is an important and necessary win in the grand scheme of things, right? If we’re talking about, you know, Governor Andy Beshear, that’s not necessarily a swing state, right? But he certainly brings things to the table if we’re talking about, you know, a North Carolina governor, maybe we’re putting that state in play. But it would be amazing to see, uh, you know, somebody in Democratic leadership read your fantastic piece in The 19th and say, “Hmm, let’s put some polls out there and see how well this does. Let’s actually at least just test this, because maybe there’s something to this.” Listen, if Aaron Sorkin can think that this is the next season of the West Wing, and write in Mitt Romney for the Democratic ticket, then we can throw out anything and hopefully be taken seriously.
Errin:
I mean, apparently it’s all on the table. It’s all on the table.
Brittany:
All of it.
Errin:
If conventional wisdom does win out, and I suspect it probably will.
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
Which White guy do we think is getting tapped for this job? I’m just saying!
Brittany:
Here’s what I say, though: I think that ultimately my hope is that the pick is somebody who understands what it means to support, defend and back up a Black and South Asian woman in a position in which she’s never been on the national stage. And so my hope is that it’s somebody who is ready to be on board with her and to defend being on board with her at all times.
Errin:
Yeah, no, you’re making such a good point. I mean, I talk about this a lot too — just the idea that there’s so few Americans, period, who have ever had a Black woman as the boss of everything, right?
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
And so what that potentially could model for the country, I think, is also, I mean, it’s beyond symbolism. It’s potentially very, very powerful for us as a society. Uh, that said, I continue to bet my baby hair that Josh Shapiro will be her running mate. So we’ll see what happens.
Brittany:
Well let’s bet the baby hair. I’m good with that. Listen, I wanna keep my baby hair, but I’m good with that choice.
Errin:
Well, for a final thought, you know, I, I I wanna ask you, um, if you had to think about, you know, kind of what the vice president’s maybe secret weapon is gonna be in this election over the next, you know, 104 days or so?
Brittany:
Yeah.
Errin:
I will tell you, listening yesterday to the stop at the campaign office…
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
…the second gentleman’s remarks reminded me of what a potentially powerful surrogate he could be.
Brittany:
That’s right.
Errin:
His love, not only for her, but the love that he expressed for the country, his admiration for President Biden…
Brittany:
Mm-Hmm.
Errin:
He’s somebody who was very well liked. He’s somebody who was already familiar with and comfortable on the campaign trail. I’m really thinking that he could be a significant factor in not only introducing her to the country, but also getting voters comfortable with the idea of this potentially history-making candidate. What do you think?
Brittany:
That’s right. I think that you are absolutely on target. Look, I have been in social settings with the second gentleman when he was with her, and the kind of sense of responsibility he seems to show — not just as a husband, but as a partner in leadership..
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
— with her in this history-making space that she already occupies…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
…as the first Black and South Asian woman to be vice president.
Errin:
And he, too, also making history, right? He is making his own blueprint.
Brittany:
The first second gentleman, as a Jewish second gentleman, right? That there are them as a blended family, right? There are lots of ways in which they are redefining, for America, what leadership looks like. I mean, thinking about the fact that her taking this position meant that there were several literal handbooks and rule books that had to be rewritten…
Errin:
Mm-Hmm..
Brittany:
…from the perspective and for the needs of a woman and a woman of color, and not a man in the VP seat and not a woman in the second spouse seat is a reminder that the blueprint has already been rewritten.
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
So them together, and him as a powerful surrogate, certainly I think can help people — Americans — re-envision what is possible and what we can do when we come together, especially across lines of difference. I really, though, think that her special sauce — her most secret weapon — is her rootedness and her authenticity.
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
I think that as she is more unleashed, I think that as she is not standing behind someone but fully standing on her own — and as more and more people are telling the stories of their interactions with her, as more people get to actually touch her, hear her, get to know her very differently — I think that they will see somebody who really does work hard to not only honor her commitments, but honor everyday people. My own experiences with her, as I’ve gotten to know her over the years, have both been political and personal, right? That she has called me when I was going through a difficult professional time, that when my son was in the NICU she called and wanted to speak to him and wanted to speak to myself and my husband to encourage us and tell us to keep going.
Brittany:
And she’s also reached out, uh, repeatedly, for policy feedback. She’s been doing that since I knew her in her Senate days, really wanting to dig into the details and say, “Well, how can we fix this?” Or, “What do you think of this?” And my promise to her, like so many other people who she interacts with in this way, was to always be honest.
Errin:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany:
Even at places where we disagree, even in places where I have critique. And I have watched her listen intently and welcome the critique, welcome the feedback, welcome the pushes. That is the kind of person that I want in charge. Not because they’re perfect. Not because every policy position of theirs matches every policy position of mine. But because they understand what public service is — that it is servant leadership, that you are of service to the people first. And I’m hopeful that kind of energy that she brings to so many spaces is seen more and more by the American people so that they can not only trust her enough to vote for her, but be engaged enough to continue to raise their voices once she gets in office to make sure that the people’s agenda is the agenda that she follows.
Errin:
Yeah. Well, I think that we are seeing a candidate that is so much more confident and comfortable in their skin than…
Brittany:
Absolutely.
Errin:
…she was even, you know, four years ago. And it’s something that she’s really grown into over these three and a half years as vice president. So, listen, this was fun. We should do it again.
Errin:
This was fun! We should do it again! Listen, thank you, Brittany. Thank you for hanging out on The Amendment. This will not be the last time. Hopefully I’ll be hanging out with you again soon.
Brittany:
Absolutely. Thanks, friend. Thanks for all you do.
Errin:
The Amendment is a co-production of the 19th News and Wonder Media Network. It is executive produced by Jenny Kaplan, Terri Rupar, and Faith Smith. Wonder Media Network’s head of development is Emily Rudder. Julia B. Chan is the 19th’s editor-in-chief. The Amendment is edited by Jenny Kaplan, Grace Lynch and Emily Rudder, and it is produced by Grace Lynch, Brittany Martinez and Taylor Williamson with production assistance from Luci Jones. And post-production support from Julie Bogen, Victoria Clark, Lance Dixon and Wynton Wong. Artwork by Aria Goodman. And our theme music was composed by JLin.
